Panzerfaust & Panzerschreck Value?

[Skyorca]

Hello everyone,

While I personally don't take anti-tank launchers in my German lists, I wanted to ask if its even worth the points. For late war, for the price of taking 3 Panzerschrecks (at 2pts each) I can get 2 Pak 40s for an extra point, have double the range, and fire twice if not pinned or moving.

So what would be the advantage (If any) to take these sorts of weapons in my infantry lists? Perhaps if they were 1 point a piece like the US rifle infantry list's Bazooka, but them being 2pts a piece just doesn't seem worth their price tag.

That and I take Pak 40s, 88s, Panthers/Panzer 4s/(Panzer 4/70), etc to fill in my gaps to deal with armor anyways, so what purpose could they pose?

Thoughts?

[socialtrader]

Hi,

The main reason I max out on Panzerschrecks where possible is to bring up the strength of my platoons. If you're playing tanks the MG teams can be removed first (if possible) and if you're playing infantry you can take hits on the Panzerschrecks.

Secondly, they are excellent when you get stuck in an assault with or need to assault armored teams. Bazookas are not as good in this role as even in a Veteran US platoon they hit on 5+ in combat. Panzerschrecks on the other hand hit on 4+. Plus they have the extra AT (11 vs 10 on the bazooka) which is pretty neat.

Panzerfausts also have the benefit of being 'unkillable', that is until the last team is dead/removed form play.

Having said that, my base force for Panzergrenadiers or Grenadiers would always include 3-4 Pak 40s as they are an excellent ambush unit. A bit of both goes a long way towards covering different roles.

[NDNG_Iron_Tom]

I will always try to Max out the AT assets in my infantry platoons.

[Ryan]

Optional Anti tank weapons add great value! However there could be a case to be made for limiting them. For the record I would ALWAYS advocate taking be panzerfausts so this argument is purely for additional panzershreks. Here is how I see it:

The case for Panzershreks:

1) They add man count numbers to the platoon allowing it to stay in the game and combat effective longer.

2) Tank Assault Deterrent. Because assaulting tanks need to suffer two bails/kills to force an assault to break up, panzerfausts alone cannot ever breakup an assault as they are limited to 1 shot per round of combat. Having 3 shreks and 1 Faust makes breaking up an assault very likely. The attacker will have to hide time and through attrition soften these defenses which allows time for reserves and help to arrive.

3) Utility. While AT Guns are better at killing tanks, they are essentially immobile and thus crafty attackers can often avoid them. Outside of PakFront 88’s I find that most AT Guns fire very little each game and act more as a area denial weapon. Infantry AT assets can be used in a much more mobile role to take the fight to the enemy. Advancing infantry into concealment from which to take pot shots at exposed tanks is a threat that often makes opponents less bold - or more dead.

The case for leaving shreks at home:

1) If your infantry are only playing a specific assault role in your force and you have ample AT assets elsewhere you may find that those extra points allow you to take other critical elements such as a smoke template or recon.

[Skyorca]

I appreciate the feedback, and as someone who goes up against armor frequently this is fairly good advice.

I guess my other thought was: If I am already taking Pakfront with 4 88s in my list, should I bother taking Pak 40s as well and divert those points into infantry anti-tank (For context, I am basing this on the SS list I made last year). I already run Wespes and 8cm mortars for smoke generation and have 1 Recon platoon and one panzer grenadier platoon (The Recon has all 7 halftracks attached to it).

[1stBn]

If I am already taking Pakfront with 4 88s in my list, should I bother taking Pak 40s as well and divert those points into infantry anti-tank (For context, I am basing this on the SS list I made last year).

Is your opponent going to be Russian IS-2s backed by a horde of T34s or will they be a trackless Allied Paratrooper list?

One opponent will need every single AT Gun you can get, the other opponent results in any AT gun being a waste of points. Do you feel comfortable with the AT you do have? If you do not then look at adding PaK 40s or even PaK38s. That leads to the question, do you need the 88s in a PaKfront?

[Skyorca]

I'm already taking the 4 88s, 3 Panthers, 4 Pumas, 3 Wespes, and the Pak 40s. I wanted to have the 88s in Pakfront so they could cover more of the board and be individual teams so they are harder to destroy. I should have re-worded the question, should I ditch the Pak 40s for some Panzerfaust? I think the anti tank I have is alright to handle most things but if that fails, my infantry are screwed (Running a recon company with one 7 half track platoon and the other is a Panzergrenadier platoon).

I also saw in the Bagration German book that most Panzergrenadier teams automatically take Panzerfausts, and wanted to ask if anyone ever takes Panzerfausts for their HQ infantry units? If there was an advantage I'd like to hear it.

I was told on my other discussion about my list things for and against taking pakfront. Some think its a waste of 6pts and others think it has a ton of utility. I could drop the pakfront card and add infantry anti tank assets, but I'm not sure its a good idea. Thoughts?

Edit: In the past, I have done well in dealing with enemy armor but struggled playing against infantry so I added the armored half-tracks and artillery to help.

[Johnnyreb]

If I am already taking Pakfront with 4 88s in my list, should I bother taking Pak 40s as well and divert those points into infantry anti-tank (For context, I am basing this on the SS list I made last year).

Is your opponent going to be Russian IS-2s backed by a horde of T34s or will they be a trackless Allied Paratrooper list?

This is a good point. Way back in V2 days I took a trackless US Para list to Historicon. IIRC it had 16 bazookas in it. My first opponent had a list that was built for fighting tanks. I won that game before it had even started. My Para's spent the game chasing Nashorns and Pak 40's around a heavily wooded table, taking out 88's with their 60mm Mortars using direct fire, he never had a chance to win.

[1stBn]

... and wanted to ask if anyone ever takes Panzerfausts for their HQ infantry units? If there was an advantage I'd like to hear it.

I was told on my other discussion about my list things for and against taking pakfront. Some think its a waste of 6pts and others think it has a ton of utility. I could drop the pakfront card and add infantry anti tank assets, but I'm not sure its a good idea. Thoughts?

Edit: In the past, I have done well in dealing with enemy armor but struggled playing against infantry so I added the armored half-tracks and artillery to help.

It really depends on your playstyle and what/how you run the various units. Under v1/2/3 I ran my lists
almost opposite of how most people ran them. I was super aggressive with infantry. I would race them down the flanks and as JohnnyReb described would actively chase armor. I made sure to assault tanks on my terms on the terrain I wanted to. For them having PzF was a must. The HQ was also filled with PzF. They are a good thing to have if you are aggressive but also in Defense mode as well. An infantry platoon with a formation commander gets the bonus rerolls and that extra Pzf stats. The more PzF the merrier. If you can actually roll to hit successfully, the opponent will quickly lose his tank quantity/numbers.

[Skyorca]

Thanks for the advice! I like the idea of running down armor with my infantry, so I think I will modify my list to do so (Because I want to play aggressive against enemy armor and defensive against infantry...but if it had to go the other way then the half tracks and artillery can take care of the pesky buggers

I presume you used the half tracks to get the infantry closer to the vehicles, then dismounted and rushed them?