Formation Support SS Panzergrenadiers

[Skyorca]

I've made a lot of posts as of the last few weeks, so I will keep this short.

Can I use a SS Panzergrenadier Company from the D-Day SS book and use formation support from German Bagration (So I can include Marders and IV/70s)?

Its fun being a new player and constantly list building, but sometimes I get overwhelmed by the amount of options knowing that some are great choices and some are purely for the models.

Also, I know running armored car formations in mid war was a huge thing for German players (And I would have done it myself if I wanted to spend the $300 required to do so)....but is it still viable for late war?

[Skyorca]

Add on: Has anyone used 88 Tank Hunters with the Pakfront card to good success? (I am referring to the long 88s with AT 17).

Its 24pts for them with Pakfront versus Flak 88s being 18pts for Pakfront. I am considering having Panzer 4/70s or Panthers to cover mobile anti-tank + Bagration Marders...I wanted to prepare for changes in my list in case certain units don't work.

I intend on making a Bagration list to accommodate the new units I want to swap for, but this is my current SS list:

Waffen SS Recon List V1
(40% Reserves In Bold)

SS Reconnaissance Company

SS Reconnaissance Company HQ:
2x MP40 SMG team w/Panzerfaust
2x Sd Kfz 250 (MG) half-track
6pts

SS Reconnaissance Platoon:
7x MG42 team w/Panzerfaust
7x Sd Kfz 250 (MG) half-track
14pts

SS Panzergrenadier Platoon:
7x MG42 team w/Panzerfaust
1x Panzerschreck anti-tank
11pts

Reconnaissance 7.5cm SS Gun Platoon:
3x Sd Kfz 250 (7.5cm)
5pts

Armoured 7.5cm SS Gun Platoon:
6x Sd Kfz 251 (7.5cm)
8pts

Reconnaissance 8cm SS Mortar Section:
3x Sd Kfz 250 (8cm)
3pts

7.5cm SS Tank-Hunter Platoon:
3x 7.5cm gun
9pts
-----
Formation Sub Total: 56pts

Support:

Panther SS Tank Platoon:
3x Panther (7.5cm)
9th Hohenstaufen SS Panzer Division “The Best Panthers” Command Card
35pts

Hummel SS Artillery Battery:
3x Hummel (15cm)
9pts
-----
Support Sub Total: 44pts
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Grand Total: 100pts

This is different than the list I had discussed a few months back, just including more armor instead of the 88 flak: Pak front.
The other question I wanted to mention, is should I bother running any of the big cats if I am using Pakfront 88s (Flak or long)? If I run Pak front, then technically I could opt for some AT 11 or AT 12 units to fill the rest of my gaps instead of taking so much AT9. Thoughts?

(And if you couldn't tell, I don't have many people up where I live to ask these sorts of things. I am also constantly list building trying to come up with a "perfect" list that isn't meta, but will perform well against most threats).

[Peter56]

Yes you can.

[Skyorca]

Thanks!

[1stBn]

... should I bother running any of the big cats if I am using Pakfront 88s (Flak or long)? If I run Pak front, then technically I could opt for some AT 11 or AT 12 units to fill the rest of my gaps instead of taking so much AT9. Thoughts?

1st, it is always good to have some sort of actual recce (Spearhead rule). In spite of the titles your list lacks a recce unit that contains spearhead.

High AT, ATGs are a good area denial weapon. But with some of the artillery rules, any static guns can eventually become ineffective. Also, area denial is tough to have covering the whole board as terrain will usually creates avenues or alleyways into your rear objectives. If you are attacking, those big static ATGs loose effectiveness as well.

You want 2-3 units that can move forward and attack, assault and defend objectives in the rear of an opponent. Depending on what you have, depends if you need support for those units. Those 2 infantry platoons with the halftracks are a great flanking buffer to the Panthers. The Panther and 2 infantry platoons give you that attacking force. The 7,5cm halftracks and organic MG transports are great support to those three tank/infantry units. Artillery (Hummel/Mortars are always a great support to what ever is the attacking units.

If you remove panthers and replace it with another PakFront, do you still need that 3rd attacking unit? If so what? The two infantry units can work, so technically you do not need a 3rd, but do you want to actually want to run without? Dropping the Panthers for another Pak front and smaller tank (like a P4 or even a P3) or a 3rd infantry (even that blocking infantry platoon from bagration can work as well.

But combined, is the new units worth it to replace the Panther? What do you gain and/or lose?

[Skyorca]

Panthers are 35pts with the 9th ss command card, so flak 88s with the Pakfront are a total of 16pts, giving me 19pts to work with. I could probably drop the 7.5cm to give me 28pts and get some Panzer 4s and recon. I could also get some long 88s and Pakfront those, but that would be 24pts. I'll do some thinking and get back to this.

Also might I ask, is running an armored car/half track formation viable in late war as it has been in mid war? I like the idea of running around with a bunch of little vehicles, but I don't know if they will be as effective as before.

[Skyorca]

If you remove panthers and replace it with another PakFront, do you still need that 3rd attacking unit? If so what? The two infantry units can work, so technically you do not need a 3rd, but do you want to actually want to run without? Dropping the Panthers for another Pak front and smaller tank (like a P4 or even a P3) or a 3rd infantry (even that blocking infantry platoon from bagration can work as well.

But combined, is the new units worth it to replace the Panther? What do you gain and/or lose?

Well conveniently Pakfront 88 flaks are 16pts and Jagdpanzer IVs are 19pts, which totals 35pts. So yes, I could drop the Panthers in favor for area denial and still keep that 3rd attacking unit. Question is what do I sacrifice for Spearhead from my core formation? Do I take armored cars with the 2cm guns or do I take the more expensive Pumas with the 5cm gun?

[Halkomahooli]

If you remove panthers and replace it with another PakFront, do you still need that 3rd attacking unit? If so what? The two infantry units can work, so technically you do not need a 3rd, but do you want to actually want to run without? Dropping the Panthers for another Pak front and smaller tank (like a P4 or even a P3) or a 3rd infantry (even that blocking infantry platoon from bagration can work as well.

But combined, is the new units worth it to replace the Panther? What do you gain and/or lose?

Well conveniently Pakfront 88 flaks are 16pts and Jagdpanzer IVs are 19pts, which totals 35pts. So yes, I could drop the Panthers in favor for area denial and still keep that 3rd attacking unit. Question is what do I sacrifice for Spearhead from my core formation? Do I take armored cars with the 2cm guns or do I take the more expensive Pumas with the 5cm gun?

I'd take the 2cm armoured cars. You're there to spearhead and harras arty with them, not to fight tanks.

[Skyorca]

SS Reconnaissance Company
SS Reconnaissance Company HQ:
2x MP40 SMG team w/Panzerfaust
2x Sd Kfz 250 (MG) half-track
6pts

SS Reconnaissance Platoon:
7x MG42 team w/Panzerfaust
7x Sd Kfz 250 (MG) half-track
14pts

SS Panzergrenadier Platoon:
7x MG42 team w/Panzerfaust
1x Panzerschreck anti-tank
11pts

Sd Kfz 250 SS Scout Troop:
2x Sd Kfz 250/9 (2cm)
1x Sd Kfz 250 (MG)
2pts

Sd Kfz 250 SS Scout Troop:
2x Sd Kfz 250/9 (2cm)
1x Sd Kfz 250 (MG)
2pts


Armoured 7.5cm SS Gun Platoon:
6x Sd Kfz 251 (7.5cm)
8pts

Reconnaissance 8cm SS Mortar Section:
3x Sd Kfz 250 (8cm)
3pts

7.5cm SS Tank-Hunter Platoon:
3x 7.5cm gun
9pts

-----
Formation Sub Total: 55pts

Support:

8.8cm SS Heavy AA Platoon:
4x 8.8cm AA gun
“Pakfront” Command Card
16pts

Jagdpanzer IV SS Tank-Hunter Platoon:
4x Jagdpanzer IV (7.5cm)
19pts

Hummel SS Artillery Battery:
3x Hummel (15cm)
9pts

Panzer III OP SS Observation Post:
1x Panzer III OP (MG)
1pt

-----
Support Sub Total: 45pts
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Grand Total: 100pts

Looking really good. Last thing, do I keep the 7.5cm gun platoon for that anti-tank 12 or do I opt for 3 more Hummels for more artillery that can duel role? At this point the anti-tank I have is pretty solid so its just preference now. Experienced players, thoughts?

[1stBn]

I think the 6x7,5cm H/T will be the most deadly weapon you have. Save adding the Hummels for higher than 100 points.